[OpenSIPS-Users] [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

[Jiri Kuthan]

Folks,

while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.

-jiri

---
Hello Everybody,

We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.

It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.

Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
members and companies:

* bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
* reduce maintenance overhead
* avoid duplicated efforts in development
* develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
* promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
* ensure business credibility
* make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business

You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:

http://sip-router.org

There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
see many of you there:
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/

We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
join the new mailing list for further discussions:

http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev

Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Hi Jiri,

Thank you for pointing this. On a first view, it looks interesting, but
I'm missing some points here (important points):

1) as OpenSER was forked from SER because different views (and the
OpenSER view proved to be a very popular and successful one), I wonder
why, Kamilio is getting back to SER? not sharing any more the OpenSER
view as claimed? because such merging will definitely have a great
impact on the dynamical and openness of the projects (like releases,
contributions, driving the project)

2) this major change of perspective (at least for kamilio) was a
backstage decision, kept secret from the community - shouldn't be in the
interest of the community to say if going back to the roots (merging
into SER) is something wanted or not? it somehow contradicts the self
existence of OpenSER, right?

3) the benefits you mentions are mainly optimization of the internal
project activities and not optimizations of the outcome - what the
project will deliver. And I guess this is the most important. We already
went though the experience of large devel community, frameworks, etc
but with no outcome for more than 2 years...

[Jiri Kuthan]

Hi Bogdan,

first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.


Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Hi Jiri,
Thank you for pointing this. On a first view, it looks interesting, but
1) as OpenSER was forked from SER because different views (and the
OpenSER view proved to be a very popular and successful one), I wonder
why, Kamilio is getting back to SER? not sharing any more the OpenSER
view as claimed? because such merging will definitely have a great
impact on the dynamical and openness of the projects (like releases,
contributions, driving the project)

Our interest has been formulated as "high concentration of developers
should
increase the overall perfection of the software, defined as sound well
thought-of
design, low number of bugs and solid documentation."

It seems that the community is more concerned about serial forking desires
(not meaning the particular SIP feature) than about what you are suggesting.
Also I think that some of these concerns have been largely exaggerated
to serve one own's purpose and over time, they just amortized themselves.

In fact, I think forking is a BAD thing to do, and this process is an
acknowledgment of it. Folks may find more insights about downsides of
forking under the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
2) this major change of perspective (at least for kamilio) was a
backstage decision, kept secret from the community - shouldn't be in the
interest of the community to say if going back to the roots (merging
into SER) is something wanted or not? it somehow contradicts the self
existence of OpenSER, right?

Given the fact, that this is a very public invitation I'm not concerned
about conspiracy theories. In fact, folks are invited to participate by
debating all possible debates, and ideally actual work. So far, all the
feedback I have received both privately and publicly is very positive
-- folks understand that consolidation of effort is a good thing to do.

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
3) the benefits you mentions are mainly optimization of the internal
project activities and not optimizations of the outcome - what the
project will deliver. And I guess this is the most important. We already
went though the experience of large devel community, frameworks, etc
but with no outcome for more than 2 years...

See above what the key goals are. If you think, something more sound can
be added, I will appreciate such feedback very much.

[Dan Pascu]

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Bogdan,
first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email

I also find a particular tendency to push others to adopt your view as
being better than theirs in your emails. Now can we skip the personal
characterizations and stick to the relevant points?

Post by Jiri Kuthan
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.

I think he already did. In case you are not aware, every fix in opensips
was quickly ported to kamailio. I'm also sure this will continue, so
indirectly the new project will benefit from his work it seems...

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

Wow. For someone who claims to extend a white flag and an invitation to
peace, you certainly know how to push the right buttons to piss someone
off. Hint: by demonizing the others and making them look like the bad
guys because they don't share your view, won't help in the mediation
process.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Our interest has been formulated as "high concentration of developers
should
increase the overall perfection of the software, defined as sound well
thought-of
design, low number of bugs and solid documentation."

We went through 2 intestine fights in this project to know better than
a "high concentration of developers" can also lead to something else than
more coding poper. Did anything change in the attitudes of the involved
parties towards each others to guarantee that this time it will be
different? Because if not it'll be doomed from start. The real issue is
not the man power or concentration of developers, is the relation between
them.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
It seems that the community is more concerned about serial forking
desires (not meaning the particular SIP feature) than about what you
are suggesting. Also I think that some of these concerns have been
largely exaggerated to serve one own's purpose and over time, they just
amortized themselves.
In fact, I think forking is a BAD thing to do, and this process is an
acknowledgment of it. Folks may find more insights about downsides of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29

You have posted this link 3 times already in the emails you have sent to
this thread, so we know by now that you strongly support this view. While
I agree with you that if possible people should work together rather than
apart, I also know that if they can't work together it's better to work
apart than spend most of the time fighting rather than working.

Besides I strongly disagree that forking is necessarily BAD. In the
opensource software world, forking is the equivalent of freedom of
expression. If some developers feel they cannot express themselves as
they want under the rule of the others and they cannot find a way to
solve the conflict, then by all means forking is their right and the only
way to fully express their potential. Are you suggesting that you would
like to deny their freedom of expression which you see as a BAD thing?

Post by Jiri Kuthan
I'm sure there are some who are extremely anxious about size-matters,
and those who love conspiration theories and other fascinating
subjects.

Wow (again). You cannot really expect to be taken seriously in your claim
that you come with a peace offer when you make sarcastic comments like
this and try to make the other party look like the Bad Guys TM.
I would say the only conspiracy I see around is against common sense and
dignity.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
In fact, the objectives here are very pragmatic and that's
getting the individuals contributing to SER together, for SER's sake. I
see individuals as key "contributing bodies", even though role of

Is this view of individuals as key "contributing bodies" a new one which
tries to fix the issues that led to openser forking from ser, or did you
view things the same way back then? Because if nothing changed, the
experience will be recreated all over again.

Somehow, your sarcastic comments make me doubt that and also makes me
skeptical of the fact that you will be able to bring people together.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
In summary, it seems to me that fortunately all of the concerns above,
are as well-minded as unjustified and the key concerns remains, how do
we actually avoid YAFs.

Usually by having a higher respect for the other involved parties.

[Jiri Kuthan]

Hi Dan,

I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it, but I can
make my point in plain English too: I don't find it ethical to
respond to an open invitation by a way which is just an attack.
I mean the attempt to show the un-forking effort as something
which is conspiracy, absorption of one project by another, etc,
just anything but collaborative effort is very disappointing
to me. That was not a constructive email, that was an attempt
to poison, which I'm very disapproving of. I'm hopeful you consider
to chose to lend your name to more positive activities.

There is many points in your emails I find horribly disagreeable,
but I think it is more appropriate to share those with you privately.
I don't think there can be any reasonable outcome of such
a debate, so excuse me I stop here.

Let me make just the point why I'm postig to this mailing list:
I think there are very many folks just confused by this serial forking
habit and also by the competition for the DNS name. For those,
I have a good message: ser and kamailio folks are working on
a joint project which is both technically sound, and has some
credible governance as well. Individuals willing to help are
invited to this effort, regardless with which "camp" they feel
themselves affiliated with.

-jiri

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Jiri,

This is a typical email of yours - rude and highly political - you keep
accusing people and doing political statements without any backbone. I
got used for the last 3 years with this - on the openser mailing lists
and now here.

This list is not intended for this - it is to help people in using a
piece a software and, as respect for them, please refrain from polluting
it with your political agenda.

If you do not have the nerve for listening other people comments about
your actions, then do post them for discussion. Also, if you do not
agree with somebody's else opinion, you can come up with arguments and
explanations against it.

Also, if you have unclarities about any of my previous
comments/statements, I'm ready to sustain them with arguments, in a fair
manner. The same arguments I considered 2 months ago when you came with
the same merging proposal for opensips.

Regards,
Bogdan

PS: I know that OpenSIPS is the last one standing as alternative for SER
right now, but let's have a fair game.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it, but I can
make my point in plain English too: I don't find it ethical to
respond to an open invitation by a way which is just an attack.
I mean the attempt to show the un-forking effort as something
which is conspiracy, absorption of one project by another, etc,
just anything but collaborative effort is very disappointing
to me. That was not a constructive email, that was an attempt
to poison, which I'm very disapproving of. I'm hopeful you consider
to chose to lend your name to more positive activities.
There is many points in your emails I find horribly disagreeable,
but I think it is more appropriate to share those with you privately.
I don't think there can be any reasonable outcome of such
a debate, so excuse me I stop here.
I think there are very many folks just confused by this serial forking
habit and also by the competition for the DNS name. For those,
I have a good message: ser and kamailio folks are working on
a joint project which is both technically sound, and has some
credible governance as well. Individuals willing to help are
invited to this effort, regardless with which "camp" they feel
themselves affiliated with.
-jiri

[Klaus Darilion]

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Jiri,
This is a typical email of yours - rude and highly political - you keep
accusing people and doing political statements without any backbone. I
got used for the last 3 years with this - on the openser mailing lists
and now here.
This list is not intended for this - it is to help people in using a
piece a software and, as respect for them, please refrain from polluting
it with your political agenda.
If you do not have the nerve for listening other people comments about
your actions, then do post them for discussion. Also, if you do not
agree with somebody's else opinion, you can come up with arguments and
explanations against it.
Also, if you have unclarities about any of my previous
comments/statements, I'm ready to sustain them with arguments, in a fair
manner. The same arguments I considered 2 months ago when you came with
the same merging proposal for opensips.
Regards,
Bogdan
PS: I know that OpenSIPS is the last one standing as alternative for SER
right now, but let's have a fair game.

Actually I count 2 alternatives; and this is not a cowboy duel. Just
because Kamailio and SER guys are trying to find synergies, this does
not mean that one absorbs the other. You can compare it with Linux -
there is RedHat, Debian ... but they are using the same core - the
kernel. So, we like to find synergies and work together with ser - using
a common core is the first step. If cooperation on other parts will
follow depends on the result of the first step.

I want a good SIP proxy and I am not ashamed to combine the best parts
from everywhere, for example using SER's core and merge Kamailio
extension, or porting features and bugfixes from OpenSIPs - that's open
source.

regards
klaus

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Post by Klaus Darilion

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
PS: I know that OpenSIPS is the last one standing as alternative for
SER right now, but let's have a fair game.

I want a good SIP proxy and I am not ashamed to combine the best parts
from everywhere, for example using SER's core and merge Kamailio
extension, or porting features and bugfixes from OpenSIPs - that's
open source.

So you kamailio as a project developing extensions for SER and including
features and bug fixing from OpenSIPS - may I ask what is the substance
of such a project? Why not moving to SER and start doing modules for SER
- to be honest I do not see the difference...

Regards,
Bogdan

[Klaus Darilion]

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu

Post by Klaus Darilion

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
PS: I know that OpenSIPS is the last one standing as alternative for
SER right now, but let's have a fair game.

I want a good SIP proxy and I am not ashamed to combine the best parts
from everywhere, for example using SER's core and merge Kamailio
extension, or porting features and bugfixes from OpenSIPs - that's
open source.

So you kamailio as a project developing extensions for SER and including
features and bug fixing from OpenSIPS - may I ask what is the substance
of such a project? Why not moving to SER and start doing modules for SER
- to be honest I do not see the difference...

nevermind

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Regards,
Bogdan

[Dan Pascu]

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt to
belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate your
position by contrast. I found that to be in serious contradiction with
your goal of uniting the people under a common banner. If they do not
wish to do that, you should respect their choice no matter of their
reason, instead of being sarcastic and implying that going their way
is "A Bad Thing To Do". It's not.

And stop condescending us. It's not helping you look like the person that
is able to mediate a conflict and unite a split project.

[Jiri Kuthan]

Post by Dan Pascu

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt to
belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate your
position by contrast.

Well I think it is perfectly right to express my opinion about
1) forking is a bad thing 2) as is sending poisoning emails about unforking.
I understand that yet-another-fork initiators do not like this opinion and
that's I guess all I can say about it.

-jiri

[Adrian Georgescu]

Jiri

We all respect your opinion.

Adrian

Post by Jiri Kuthan

Post by Dan Pascu

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt to
belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate your
position by contrast.

Well I think it is perfectly right to express my opinion about
1) forking is a bad thing 2) as is sending poisoning emails about unforking.
I understand that yet-another-fork initiators do not like this opinion and
that's I guess all I can say about it.
-jiri
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Johansson Olle E]

Post by Jiri Kuthan

Post by Dan Pascu

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt to
belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate your
position by contrast.

Well I think it is perfectly right to express my opinion about
1) forking is a bad thing 2) as is sending poisoning emails about unforking.
I understand that yet-another-fork initiators do not like this opinion and
that's I guess all I can say about it.

Everyone has the right to say, well not anything, but most things.
But at this point this feels more like an old battle between you guys
than something new and relevant for the public mailing list...

For me I do understand why OpenSIPS doesn't join the effort,
something that I wished for before, and why Kamailio and
SER joins effort in creating a common core.

I guess that if the discussion goes on, we have to fork Jiri,
Bogdan and Dan so one copy of each can code and the other can
create useful code...

Hmm. There's another product out there that might benefit from
some forking... Wonder if it could be based on sip-router core?

/O ;-)

[Dan Pascu]

Post by Jiri Kuthan

Post by Dan Pascu

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Dan,
I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt
to belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate
your position by contrast.

Well I think it is perfectly right to express my opinion about
1) forking is a bad thing 2) as is sending poisoning emails about
unforking. I understand that yet-another-fork initiators do not like
this opinion and that's I guess all I can say about it.

I couldn't care less how many opinions you express. But you seem to
mistake expressing opinions with being rude, condescending or sarcastic
towards those that do not agree with you. If nothing else, this thread
completely enlightened me about the kind of rule the new joint project
will be under.

[Dan Pascu]

I'm really sorry for you, what can I say.

Stop being condescending. I really do not appreciate this kind of
manipulative stance. If you really want to act like a leader and mediator
you should stop trying to make others feel guilty for their choice of not
buying what you're selling.

To make things clear: I do not believe a fork is necessarily a bad thing,
I do not feel bad about it and I do not look back with regrets, though I
cannot stop noticing that some people have lingering regrets, considering
the amount of emotional distress displayed in messages exchanged on the
subject, even now after so many years.

So, I'm pretty happy with what I do now and I'm not interested in this new
joint project, nor do I see it as any form of competition. As a result, I
do not feel any need to argue any points about it.

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

I will simply ignore this email as I find it extremely rude and
completely disconnected from reality.

Only a single note: there is no bitterness and negativism - only keeping
my feet on the ground and looking further the glorious words and
political movements. Simply being realistic.

Let's say I have inside information as you come with the same proposal
to me (to merge opensips into ser) and based on this I have my own
understanding of the reasons and of the goals of this un-forking.
Unfortunately everything is pure politics and survival.

Bogdan

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Bogdan,
first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.
Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

[Brett Nemeroff]

All,I'm probably well out of line commenting on any of this. However, I
thought it might be worthwhile for you to have some opinions of users, like
me, who are not involved in the politics but are genuinely interested in
using the product.

I've been using some flavor of SER for the last 5 or 6 years now. I love the
product. It's always been great. It's well documented and it "just plain
works". I started with SER when that was all there was. Then the needed to
use the LCR module caused me to jump the OpenSER (as it seemed OpenSER was a
bit more progressive). The latest fork caused me, and my clients to wonder
"What the heck is going on?", and "Which project do we use now?". It
certainly took a huge hit in confidence.

As a user, I can't answer the question of which product to use. I don't
really know the difference between the two (especially since it's so easy to
switch between one and the other). The latest addition of the drouting
module makes me want to stick with opensips. Besides that, I don't have any
good reason to be with one or the other. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.

Seriously tho. We as users are confused. Sure, I'm trying to read and keep
up with all of these emails. What do I think? Does it matter? I think you
guys are all brilliant and I tend to think if you put your heads together,
you'll most definitely come up with something better than individual
projects. As is the nature of any project consisting of more than
one intelligent being, there will ALWAYS be dissension amongst peers.
Especially since you are all so bright. I think a fork is necessary if the
products are going to eventually become two separate products. However, if
it's the same product, and there is a disagreement between methodologies,
then I'd recommend that you form a technical advisory board consisting of
Users AND Developers which will provide an impartial vote on the direction.
This is a very common method of formulating technical direction in many
start up organizations. The loyalties to individual developers is ridiculous
and will hurt the product. The loyalty should be to the end product and the
the clients using the product.

Now that being said, I'd like to disclaim it by saying "I don't know what
the heck I'm talking about". And that I respect all of you and that I love
what you've come up with. Please, for our sakes, find a way to work
together.
-Brett

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Bogdan-Andrei Iancu

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
I will simply ignore this email as I find it extremely rude and
completely disconnected from reality.
Only a single note: there is no bitterness and negativism - only keeping
my feet on the ground and looking further the glorious words and
political movements. Simply being realistic.
Let's say I have inside information as you come with the same proposal
to me (to merge opensips into ser) and based on this I have my own
understanding of the reasons and of the goals of this un-forking.
Unfortunately everything is pure politics and survival.
Bogdan

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Bogdan,
first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.
Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Adrian Georgescu]

Brett,

You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.

Until that moment for all of us involved is business as usual as your
have seen in the last 5 years or so. If you plot a graph you will see
that every year this discussion happens and no end users are really
suffering from it.

So learn to live with it as we all do and tell your customers that is
business as usual.

Adrian

Post by Brett Nemeroff
All,
I'm probably well out of line commenting on any of this. However, I
thought it might be worthwhile for you to have some opinions of
users, like me, who are not involved in the politics but are
genuinely interested in using the product.
I've been using some flavor of SER for the last 5 or 6 years now. I
love the product. It's always been great. It's well documented and
it "just plain works". I started with SER when that was all there
was. Then the needed to use the LCR module caused me to jump the
OpenSER (as it seemed OpenSER was a bit more progressive). The
latest fork caused me, and my clients to wonder "What the heck is
going on?", and "Which project do we use now?". It certainly took a
huge hit in confidence.
As a user, I can't answer the question of which product to use. I
don't really know the difference between the two (especially since
it's so easy to switch between one and the other). The latest
addition of the drouting module makes me want to stick with
opensips. Besides that, I don't have any good reason to be with one
or the other. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Seriously tho. We as users are confused. Sure, I'm trying to read
and keep up with all of these emails. What do I think? Does it
matter? I think you guys are all brilliant and I tend to think if
you put your heads together, you'll most definitely come up with
something better than individual projects. As is the nature of any
project consisting of more than one intelligent being, there will
ALWAYS be dissension amongst peers. Especially since you are all so
bright. I think a fork is necessary if the products are going to
eventually become two separate products. However, if it's the same
product, and there is a disagreement between methodologies, then I'd
recommend that you form a technical advisory board consisting of
Users AND Developers which will provide an impartial vote on the
direction. This is a very common method of formulating technical
direction in many start up organizations. The loyalties to
individual developers is ridiculous and will hurt the product. The
loyalty should be to the end product and the the clients using the
product.
Now that being said, I'd like to disclaim it by saying "I don't know
what the heck I'm talking about". And that I respect all of you and
that I love what you've come up with. Please, for our sakes, find a
way to work together.
-Brett
I will simply ignore this email as I find it extremely rude and
completely disconnected from reality.
Only a single note: there is no bitterness and negativism - only keeping
my feet on the ground and looking further the glorious words and
political movements. Simply being realistic.
Let's say I have inside information as you come with the same proposal
to me (to merge opensips into ser) and based on this I have my own
understanding of the reasons and of the goals of this un-forking.
Unfortunately everything is pure politics and survival.
Bogdan

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Bogdan,
first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your

email

Post by Jiri Kuthan
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is

aimed

Post by Jiri Kuthan
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its

success.

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Brett Nemeroff]

Adrian,We deal with it fine. But I don't have a good idea of which project
to devote my attention to anymore. Neither do my clients. It's not a big
deal, but some amount of confidence in the project has been lost.

Post by Adrian Georgescu
Brett,
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being committed
or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing list. When that
happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project either stagnated or there
is no market demand anymore.
Until that moment for all of us involved is business as usual as your have
seen in the last 5 years or so. If you plot a graph you will see that every
year this discussion happens and no end users are really suffering from it.
So learn to live with it as we all do and tell your customers that is
business as usual.
Adrian
All,I'm probably well out of line commenting on any of this. However, I
thought it might be worthwhile for you to have some opinions of users, like
me, who are not involved in the politics but are genuinely interested in
using the product.
I've been using some flavor of SER for the last 5 or 6 years now. I love
the product. It's always been great. It's well documented and it "just plain
works". I started with SER when that was all there was. Then the needed to
use the LCR module caused me to jump the OpenSER (as it seemed OpenSER was a
bit more progressive). The latest fork caused me, and my clients to wonder
"What the heck is going on?", and "Which project do we use now?". It
certainly took a huge hit in confidence.
As a user, I can't answer the question of which product to use. I don't
really know the difference between the two (especially since it's so easy to
switch between one and the other). The latest addition of the drouting
module makes me want to stick with opensips. Besides that, I don't have any
good reason to be with one or the other. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Seriously tho. We as users are confused. Sure, I'm trying to read and keep
up with all of these emails. What do I think? Does it matter? I think you
guys are all brilliant and I tend to think if you put your heads together,
you'll most definitely come up with something better than individual
projects. As is the nature of any project consisting of more than
one intelligent being, there will ALWAYS be dissension amongst peers.
Especially since you are all so bright. I think a fork is necessary if the
products are going to eventually become two separate products. However, if
it's the same product, and there is a disagreement between methodologies,
then I'd recommend that you form a technical advisory board consisting of
Users AND Developers which will provide an impartial vote on the direction.
This is a very common method of formulating technical direction in many
start up organizations. The loyalties to individual developers is ridiculous
and will hurt the product. The loyalty should be to the end product and the
the clients using the product.
Now that being said, I'd like to disclaim it by saying "I don't know what
the heck I'm talking about". And that I respect all of you and that I love
what you've come up with. Please, for our sakes, find a way to work
together.
-Brett

[Adrian Georgescu]

This is easy. Just count the number of useful commits for the
functionality used by your customers and go for that one.

Adrian

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Adrian,
We deal with it fine. But I don't have a good idea of which project
to devote my attention to anymore. Neither do my clients. It's not a
big deal, but some amount of confidence in the project has been lost.
Brett,
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.
Until that moment for all of us involved is business as usual as
your have seen in the last 5 years or so. If you plot a graph you
will see that every year this discussion happens and no end users
are really suffering from it.
So learn to live with it as we all do and tell your customers that
is business as usual.
Adrian

Post by Brett Nemeroff
All,
I'm probably well out of line commenting on any of this. However, I
thought it might be worthwhile for you to have some opinions of
users, like me, who are not involved in the politics but are
genuinely interested in using the product.
I've been using some flavor of SER for the last 5 or 6 years now. I
love the product. It's always been great. It's well documented and
it "just plain works". I started with SER when that was all there
was. Then the needed to use the LCR module caused me to jump the
OpenSER (as it seemed OpenSER was a bit more progressive). The
latest fork caused me, and my clients to wonder "What the heck is
going on?", and "Which project do we use now?". It certainly took a
huge hit in confidence.
As a user, I can't answer the question of which product to use. I
don't really know the difference between the two (especially since
it's so easy to switch between one and the other). The latest
addition of the drouting module makes me want to stick with
opensips. Besides that, I don't have any good reason to be with one
or the other. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Seriously tho. We as users are confused. Sure, I'm trying to read
and keep up with all of these emails. What do I think? Does it
matter? I think you guys are all brilliant and I tend to think if
you put your heads together, you'll most definitely come up with
something better than individual projects. As is the nature of any
project consisting of more than one intelligent being, there will
ALWAYS be dissension amongst peers. Especially since you are all so
bright. I think a fork is necessary if the products are going to
eventually become two separate products. However, if it's the same
product, and there is a disagreement between methodologies, then
I'd recommend that you form a technical advisory board consisting
of Users AND Developers which will provide an impartial vote on the
direction. This is a very common method of formulating technical
direction in many start up organizations. The loyalties to
individual developers is ridiculous and will hurt the product. The
loyalty should be to the end product and the the clients using the
product.
Now that being said, I'd like to disclaim it by saying "I don't
know what the heck I'm talking about". And that I respect all of
you and that I love what you've come up with. Please, for our
sakes, find a way to work together.
-Brett

[Juha Heinanen]

Post by Adrian Georgescu
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.

fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one. this has
already happened both ways.

-- juha

[Adrian Georgescu]

Ask your customers what they want and tell them what is the best way
forward at the moment they asked the question. Later they will listen
to you even if you find an alternative and change your strategy as
long as you listened to their needs.

Adrian

Post by Juha Heinanen

Post by Adrian Georgescu
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.

fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one. this has
already happened both ways.
-- juha

[Brett Nemeroff]

Sure, I do that now. But before the drouting module, I didn't particularly
see much of a difference between the two products.
Honestly, Once I got dialog profiling, I became pretty happy. :)
-Brett

Post by Adrian Georgescu
Ask your customers what they want and tell them what is the best way
forward at the moment they asked the question. Later they will listen to you
even if you find an alternative and change your strategy as long as you
listened to their needs.
Adrian

Post by Adrian Georgescu
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being

Post by Adrian Georgescu
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.

fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one. this has
already happened both ways.
-- juha

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Well, if you need more in that area, then stay tune :)
we already have the automatic call ending (from proxy) on timeout ;)

Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Brett Nemeroff
Sure, I do that now. But before the drouting module, I didn't
particularly see much of a difference between the two products.
Honestly, Once I got dialog profiling, I became pretty happy. :)
-Brett
Ask your customers what they want and tell them what is the best
way forward at the moment they asked the question. Later they will
listen to you even if you find an alternative and change your
strategy as long as you listened to their needs.
Adrian
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on
the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.
fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is
committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one.
this has
already happened both ways.
-- juha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Adrian Georgescu]

And a dialog based prepaid engine integrated with MediaProxy and
CDRTool is around the corner :-)

Adrian

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Well, if you need more in that area, then stay tune :)
we already have the automatic call ending (from proxy) on timeout ;)
Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Brett Nemeroff
Sure, I do that now. But before the drouting module, I didn't
particularly see much of a difference between the two products.
Honestly, Once I got dialog profiling, I became pretty happy. :)
-Brett
Ask your customers what they want and tell them what is the best
way forward at the moment they asked the question. Later they will
listen to you even if you find an alternative and change your
strategy as long as you listened to their needs.
Adrian
You should only worry only when you see that no new code is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on
the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.
fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is
committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one.
this has
already happened both ways.
-- juha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[David Villasmil]

YOU THE MAN!!!! I KNEW YOU'D GET THAT OUT! hehe!

D

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Bogdan-Andrei Iancu

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Well, if you need more in that area, then stay tune :)
we already have the automatic call ending (from proxy) on timeout ;)
Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Brett Nemeroff
Sure, I do that now. But before the drouting module, I didn't
particularly see much of a difference between the two products.
Honestly, Once I got dialog profiling, I became pretty happy. :)
-Brett
Ask your customers what they want and tell them what is the best
way forward at the moment they asked the question. Later they will
listen to you even if you find an alternative and change your
strategy as long as you listened to their needs.
Adrian
You should only worry only when you see that no new code
is being
committed or no end-users are supported or is silence on
the mailing
list. When that happens that definitely is a bad sign, the
project
either stagnated or there is no market demand anymore.
fork causes an end user problem if new useful code is committed to one
project and it is not ported and supported in the other one.
this has
already happened both ways.
-- juha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Johansson Olle E]

Post by Brett Nemeroff
All,
I'm probably well out of line commenting on any of this. However, I
thought it might be worthwhile for you to have some opinions of
users, like me, who are not involved in the politics but are
genuinely interested in using the product.
I've been using some flavor of SER for the last 5 or 6 years now. I
love the product. It's always been great. It's well documented and
it "just plain works". I started with SER when that was all there
was. Then the needed to use the LCR module caused me to jump the
OpenSER (as it seemed OpenSER was a bit more progressive). The
latest fork caused me, and my clients to wonder "What the heck is
going on?", and "Which project do we use now?". It certainly took a
huge hit in confidence.
As a user, I can't answer the question of which product to use. I
don't really know the difference between the two (especially since
it's so easy to switch between one and the other). The latest
addition of the drouting module makes me want to stick with
opensips. Besides that, I don't have any good reason to be with one
or the other. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Seriously tho. We as users are confused. Sure, I'm trying to read
and keep up with all of these emails. What do I think? Does it
matter? I think you guys are all brilliant and I tend to think if
you put your heads together, you'll most definitely come up with
something better than individual projects. As is the nature of any
project consisting of more than one intelligent being, there will
ALWAYS be dissension amongst peers. Especially since you are all so
bright. I think a fork is necessary if the products are going to
eventually become two separate products. However, if it's the same
product, and there is a disagreement between methodologies, then I'd
recommend that you form a technical advisory board consisting of
Users AND Developers which will provide an impartial vote on the
direction. This is a very common method of formulating technical
direction in many start up organizations. The loyalties to
individual developers is ridiculous and will hurt the product. The
loyalty should be to the end product and the the clients using the
product.
Now that being said, I'd like to disclaim it by saying "I don't know
what the heck I'm talking about". And that I respect all of you and
that I love what you've come up with. Please, for our sakes, find a
way to work together.
-Brett

Brett,

Thank you for a very clear message to all of us involved in the
project in one role or another.

Well worth reading, because for all Open Source developers, the love
of our products by the users are very important. This applies to all
developers in all projects. In some cases, there's just a huge
difference in how we feel we can deliver the best products ever to the
users...

/Olle
(not a developer in these projects, but involved as an active user)

[Brett Nemeroff]

Is there any way to make the meeting open to those of us that can't attend
in person? Perhaps an audiocast or chat group or something of that nature?
Thanks,
Brett

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Folks,
while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
-jiri
---
Hello Everybody,
We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.
Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
* bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
* reduce maintenance overhead
* avoid duplicated efforts in development
* develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
* promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
* ensure business credibility
* make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business
http://sip-router.org
There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Adrian Georgescu]

Hello Jiri,

For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies
that closely depend on the success of the project and we have
contracts with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about
who we are, what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor.
Clarity is something customers need to have for the sake of their
current and future investments.

It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up.
Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen
before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the eco-
system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which
happend a lot in the last four years.

The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution
for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice
once they have enough information and measurements.

Regards,
Adrian

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Folks,
while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
-jiri
---
Hello Everybody,
We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.
Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them,
community
* bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
* reduce maintenance overhead
* avoid duplicated efforts in development
* develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
* promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
* ensure business credibility
* make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business
http://sip-router.org
There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Jiri Kuthan]

Post by Adrian Georgescu
Hello Jiri,
For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies
that closely depend on the success of the project and we have contracts
with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about who we are,
what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor. Clarity is
something customers need to have for the sake of their current and
future investments.
It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up.
Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen
before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the
eco-system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which
happend a lot in the last four years.
The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution
for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice once
they have enough information and measurements.

Hi Adrian,

Of course interests of companies and their customers are perfectly
legitimate
and to be accounted for, and transparency is helpful.

I'm just not clear about what possible conclusions relating to the
unforking debate
I may infer?

One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are interested
in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad thing
and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized software.
(More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.

-jiri

Post by Adrian Georgescu
Regards,
Adrian

Post by Jiri Kuthan
Folks,
while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
-jiri
---
Hello Everybody,
We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.
Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
* bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
* reduce maintenance overhead
* avoid duplicated efforts in development
* develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
* promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
* ensure business credibility
* make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business
http://sip-router.org
There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team
_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Johansson Olle E]

Post by Jiri Kuthan
One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are
interested
in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad thing
and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized software.
(More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.

I don't fully agree with you there. Forking might be a good thing and
in some
cases, the only way forward for a developer or a group of developers.
There's
a reason why the open source licenses actually gives users and
developers
the right to fork. And one have to realize, you can't work with
everyone every
time. In Open Source, you don't pick your community and learn to work
with
almost every strange type there is. In some cases, chemistry just
doesn't work.
Often is more about people, than about code, features or actual result.

On the other hand, I personally try to avoid forking at all costs and
I applaud
the effort to unite. Not because I dislike forking, but that I like
that so many
highly professional developers with different skills decide to work
together.
If they prove that they can work together, I think we'll see miracles.
If they
can't, well at least they tried.

As Adrian says, in the end the result is what counts. As a consultant
and advisor to my customers, I have to be very realistic and at this
point say
"stick with OpenSER or SER, and wait and see what happens with OpenSIPS,
Kamailio and SER"... Most of them have working, running platforms and
there's
no acute need to upgrade.

Let's move forward and bring back the fun to these projects and create
great products!

/O

[Martin Hoffmann]

Post by Johansson Olle E
Forking might be a good thing and
in some
cases, the only way forward for a developer or a group of developers.
There's
a reason why the open source licenses actually gives users and
developers
the right to fork. And one have to realize, you can't work with
everyone every
time. In Open Source, you don't pick your community and learn to work
with
almost every strange type there is. In some cases, chemistry just
doesn't work.
Often is more about people, than about code, features or actual result.

There is essentially two types of forks. One, what could be called
the OpenBSD-type, essentially is a relief to everyone. People that
can't work together split up and everyone is happier afterwards.
Both sides will insist that the other is a bunch of morons, but that
is how it is.

Then there is the EGCS-type. A group of developers believes the old project
to be to slow and stuck in their way and leaves. They proof their point and
after some time, everyone agrees that they had valid points and a merge
happens.

I truly believe that The Original Fork was of the latter type. I think that
we who stuck with SER learned our lessons. We still all have our reasons
why we stayed with SER and I think it important that our reasons are heard
and taken seriously. But in the end the situation is that the community
approach taken by OpenSER is more successful in terms of integrating people
and encouraging to contribute their time and effort.

Post by Johansson Olle E
Let's move forward and bring back the fun to these projects and create
great products!

One second, I need to go fill my glass again ... There we are ... I toast
to that!

Best regards,
Mar"Hmm, Merlot"tin

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Hi Jiri,

Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
people want to do.

After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

And I personally do not see any future in keep trying to patch the
existing design as it has no future. If SER and kamilio want to go on
this path, fine with me, not my problem, happy for your joined effort.

But not point in black the idea of somebody forking into a different
direction than yours - nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Jiri Kuthan

Post by Adrian Georgescu
Hello Jiri,
For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies
that closely depend on the success of the project and we have contracts
with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about who we are,
what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor. Clarity is
something customers need to have for the sake of their current and
future investments.
It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up.
Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen
before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the
eco-system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which
happend a lot in the last four years.
The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution
for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice once
they have enough information and measurements.

Hi Adrian,
Of course interests of companies and their customers are perfectly
legitimate
and to be accounted for, and transparency is helpful.
I'm just not clear about what possible conclusions relating to the
unforking debate
I may infer?
One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are interested
in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad thing
and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized software.
(More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.
-jiri

[Johansson Olle E]

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....
And I personally do not see any future in keep trying to patch the
existing design as it has no future

Bogdan,

Thanks for the good insight in why you don't want to join the effort,
but go your own way. If you have different ideas for the core than what
you understand from the other teams, then there's no reason for you
to join the effort. I did not realize that was the case, now I do
understand
you better.

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

A good way of expressing it :-)

At the same time, there's something to be said for the old, solid and
good
non-forked original product... Abba is still more enjoyable than all the
forks... Ha ha!

Cheers,
/O

[Alex Balashov]

Abba is still more enjoyable than all the forks... Ha ha!

True!

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Post by Johansson Olle E

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

A good way of expressing it :-)
At the same time, there's something to be said for the old, solid and
good
non-forked original product... Abba is still more enjoyable than all the
forks... Ha ha!

Well, even ABBA broke apart (forked?), isn't it ;)

Regards,
Bogdan

[Juha Heinanen]

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
people want to do.
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

bogdan,

the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
yourself started. if it was due to people, that may happen any time
again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
needs.

-- juha

[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Hi Juha,

because, as I stated it many times, in the end, the decisions taken in
openser had nothing to do technical logic. Shortly, the was no
intellectual honesty in regards to technical part.

Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Juha Heinanen

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
people want to do.
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

bogdan,
the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
yourself started. if it was due to people, that may happen any time
again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
needs.
-- juha

[Stefan Sayer]

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Hi Juha,
because, as I stated it many times, in the end, the decisions taken in
openser had nothing to do technical logic. Shortly, the was no
intellectual honesty in regards to technical part.

Bogdan, please. Politics and commercial
interests seldomly have anything to do with technical considerations. if
it is only about technical part, then you create a branch in svn, do the
changes there, benchmark it, if really necessary create, advertise and
distribute packages from your branch, and by all that show everyone that
your design is superior, after which it is easy to merge back to trunk.
No need to fork the whole project, making later merges difficult,
splitting up users, contributors, and lowering business credibility of
the whole thing.

Regards
Stefan

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Juha Heinanen

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
people want to do.
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

bogdan,
the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
yourself started. if it was due to people, that may happen any time
again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
needs.
-- juha

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[Bogdan-Andrei Iancu]

Hi Stefan,

Wherever the code is (separate branch, in trunk,etc), the understanding
of the code is the same - there were cases where code was reverted from
trunk just because people where not able to understand that code (and
what the code is to provide).

Even if I do my design and it is 300% better, this is no guarantee
(based on past events) that the code will be accepted. Because, the tech
stuff was not relevant - the driven factors had nothing to do with the
tech aspects..That was the problem.

Do you thing I didn't evaluate all the possible options before making my
move? And anyhow, I do not foresee any later merge given the current
status ;) - al least not for OpenSIPS.

Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Stefan Sayer

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Hi Juha,
because, as I stated it many times, in the end, the decisions taken
in openser had nothing to do technical logic. Shortly, the was no
intellectual honesty in regards to technical part.

Bogdan, please. Politics and commercial
interests seldomly have anything to do with technical considerations. if
it is only about technical part, then you create a branch in svn, do the
changes there, benchmark it, if really necessary create, advertise and
distribute packages from your branch, and by all that show everyone that
your design is superior, after which it is easy to merge back to trunk.
No need to fork the whole project, making later merges difficult,
splitting up users, contributors, and lowering business credibility of
the whole thing.
Regards
Stefan

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Regards,
Bogdan

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical

needs?? > Like to do something totally different than you have and
than the other > people want to do.

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest

conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the

progress > of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls,
integration, scaling, > etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7
years ago when there was only > stateless processing, no TCP, etc....
bogdan,
the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
yourself started. if it was due to people, that may happen any time
again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
needs.
-- juha

_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users

[Adrian Georgescu]

As Bogdan already revealed, our intentions is to produce a new design
for the core that will address the scalability and security
requirement in a completely different manner than the original project
because with the passing of time the requirements of the customers of
the original product have also changed.

I believe that both projects will learn from each other and grow
better by going their own separate ways. As an eco-system we have
matured enough in the last five years to be able to learn from and
admit about our own mistakes in the past and look now at a better
future.

Regards,
Adrian

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the

progress

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....
And I personally do not see any future in keep trying to patch the
existing design as it has no future

Bogdan,

Thanks for the good insight in why you don't want to join the effort,
but go your own way. If you have different ideas for the core than what
you understand from the other teams, then there's no reason for you
to join the effort. I did not realize that was the case, now I do
understand
you better.

Post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

A good way of expressing it :-)

At the same time, there's something to be said for the old, solid and
good
non-forked original product... Abba is still more enjoyable than all the
forks... Ha ha!

Cheers,
/O